Sessismo e GdT

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Sessismo e GdT

Messaggioda Agzaroth » 13 dic 2015, 21:40

prendendo spunto da questo editoriale
http://www.goblins.net/articoli/editori ... za-mutande
qual è la vostra posizione in merito? Ci sono davvero ammiccamenti che sono eccessivi o ci si pongono troppi problemi?

convoco @yon, @raistlin @Mik e @gen0 che avevano espresso opinioni in merito.
E soprattutto ci interessano le opinioni delle nostre goblinesse: @MichyLo, @Rosa, @Nynaeve, @Mica, @Micenea, @Ardesia, @Pupina e tutte le altre.
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Re: Sessismo e GdT

Messaggioda nakedape » 14 dic 2015, 8:05

Poiché non sono prodotti venduti come vietati ai minori, ma spesso per un pubblico 12+ a me danno abbastanza fastidio.
Li trovo diseducativi in genere e davvero ipersessuali.
Sto giocando e non su youporn.
Detto questo: il limite è vago e fumoso e non possono essere tratte delle regole precise e ferree.
Da un lato il mercato non giustifica tutto (altrimenti lo step successivo cosa dovrebbe essere? Puzzilli e cocaina?), dall'altra per fortuna è abbastanza di nicchia e io mi guardo bene dall'avere in casa certi prodotti.
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Re: Sessismo e GdT

Messaggioda Agzaroth » 14 dic 2015, 8:10

Ma per certi prodotti cosa intendi?
Voglio dire, la druida di S&S è davvero così sopra le righe o lo sono le guerriere di KD?
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Re: Sessismo e GdT

Messaggioda nakedape » 14 dic 2015, 8:36

Agzaroth ha scritto:Ma per certi prodotti cosa intendi?
Voglio dire, la druida di S&S è davvero così sopra le righe oblo sono le guerriere di KD?


La druida è borderline. Le guerriere direi che sembrano la copertina di un porno a tema kinky/bondage.
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Re: Sessismo e GdT

Messaggioda phalanx » 14 dic 2015, 8:41

KD ha un altro target, tutto il gioco è dedicato ad un pubblico differente di quello di S&S.

Comunque l'immagine threesome era inappropriata. Spesso ci si scorda che i lettori della tana sono di varie fasce d'età.
I miei nipoti (10/11 anni) mi chiedono dove informarsi sui giochi. Immagina se il loro padre li vedesse su un sito con immagini a forte connotazione sessuale e parole che non capiscono. Si verrebbe a creare una situazione poco gradevole.
In questo momento, viste certe scelte editoriali, non mi sento di raccomandare il sito della tana a preadolescenti
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Re: Sessismo e GdT

Messaggioda Agzaroth » 14 dic 2015, 8:50

@phalanx: se un bimbo vede tre alberi, pensa a tre alberi. Se uno che vede tre alberi pensa a qualcosa di sessuale, direi che non ha certo bisogno di quell'immagine...
Per inciso un threesome è un gruppo di tre persone. Se lo cerchi con un pc non filtrato, vien fuori di tutto...ma si suppone che il bambino usi un pc filtrato o che lo usi coi genitori. Altrimenti auguri a dare colpe a destra e a manca...

Oggi c'è la faccia di una ragazza. Il nome non è mai menzionato. Se sai già chi è, direi che il problema non si pone. Se non sai chi è, vedi solo la faccia di una ragazza.

KD ha un altro target? Non è vm18, è un gioco di combattimento con mostri. Dici che un adolescente non ne sia attirato? ...uhm... :pippotto:
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Re: Sessismo e GdT

Messaggioda phalanx » 14 dic 2015, 8:54

Non ritengo sia la stessa cosa, ma tutto l'articolo in genere suona molto più come un "mi piacciono chiappe e bocce sulle miniature, se ve ne lamentate siete ipocriti e bigotti" più che veramente orientato ad una discussione costruttiva
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Re: Sessismo e GdT

Messaggioda Agzaroth » 14 dic 2015, 8:58

phalanx ha scritto:Non ritengo sia la stessa cosa, ma tutto l'articolo in genere suona molto più come un "mi piacciono chiappe e bocce sulle miniature, se ve ne lamentate siete ipocriti e bigotti" più che veramente orientato ad una discussione costruttiva

No un attimo, il topic c'è proprio per crearla la discussione :)
E che devo fare tutto io? :consola:
Le obiezioni che riporto sono prese da varie discussioni in rete, specie quelle sui ks. Mica ho detto di essere d'accordo su tutte ;)
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Re: Sessismo e GdT

Messaggioda Agzaroth » 14 dic 2015, 9:03

comunque ora vado a prendere qualche post della discussione su S&S, che ci può dare qualche altro spunto. Purtroppo è in inglese.
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Re: Sessismo e GdT

Messaggioda phalanx » 14 dic 2015, 9:16

Allora senza offesa l'articolo è scritto male.
Perchè non espone i vari punti contro e a favore del punto del contendere, su cui intavolare una discussione, ma raccoglie solo
Una serie di provocazioni scritte per scatenare una reazione.
Personalmente non lo trovo ideale per iniziare una discussione, soprattutto considerando che l'articolo (che come dicevo sembra più una difesa ad oltranza di un punto di vista) è in home page e la discussione invece è in un altro luogo.

Comunque per tornare IT, kd ha un altro target, guarda la pletora di genitali esposti in varie forme. Negarlo sarebbe come accomunare pokemon e tanto cuore solo perchè sono card games
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Re: Sessismo e GdT

Messaggioda Agzaroth » 14 dic 2015, 9:25

la discussione parte con una questione di numeri, ovvero sul fatto che ci fossero più eroi maschi che femmine.

I am disappointed that in order to get another female hero, we have to buy an add-on, whereas the extra male hero was a free stretch goal. Will we be getting another woman hero as a stretch goal?
This is the answer we got (in the October 16th update comments) when we wanted more female heroes (and tough and appropriately attired:
"Gremlin Project about 17 hours ago
@ALL
Don't worry, the next hero will be a woman wearing an armour, and thanks to his powers she can become much more stronger than any man ;)"
The retail box already comes with more male heroes than female, plus there are 2 free male heroes for backers of this Kickstarter. So, 5 males and only 2 females, and then you tell us if we want another female hero, we must pay for it? Not cool. :(

@ Karl: Then instead of a 2nd MALE stretch goal hero, there should have been a female one. That would have evened it up. There are more women in this world than men. "geez" some people are sexist.

i'm not being sexist it's simple economics, shes two miniatures for one hero= twice the production cost was my point, i want more females to but i'm able to see why they want a bit of money for essentially two heros. and for the record i don't care to much about the heros sex/gender i care about them having fun powers to play with, that's my requirement

I guess you really can't win as a kickstarter creator - some people will ever find something to complain. The campaign literally just started and i am sure we will see a ton of new SG and Addons in the following days.
And by the way, Judy, if the gender of a piece of plastic is that important to you, you really shouldn't call other people sexist.

Easy for you to say, "Man" fred. You wouldn't feel the same if it were men who were always overlooked and underrepresented (if represented at all), and whose opinions and concerns were dismissed nearly everywhere you went. And I only "called" Karl "sexist" because he dismissed my opinion/concern about the imbalance with his "geez people are cynical" remark.
The point is that there is a 5:2 ratio of male/female heroes in this campaign, unless we buy an add-on to bring it to 5:3.
In a previous update, we pointed the imbalance out and were told that the nest hero would be a woman, but all the male heroes are included in the base game or stretch goals (2 male hero stretch goals), but in order to get another female hero, we must pay extra. That seems a lot like asking women players to pay extra for the "privilege" of getting more choices of female heroes, while men' several choices of male heroes come "free" with the pledge.

poi si passa all'argomento "posteriore"

Seriously, why isn't her butt covered? You could have the articulated wooden armor an have some leathers or cloth underneath it that covered her skin and I'd be so much happier. I mean who'd wear wooden armor without something underneath? Think of the splinters!

We don't want to offend anybody with our characters.
Did you realize the wolf is both male and entirely naked :-) Not to talk of the Dwarf Berserker... Why nobody complains about them? Why nobody complains about our male heroes with impossibly bulging muscles none of us boys here has got (or not me, for sure)?
Beautiful and impossible bodies (both males and females) are a part of the Sword & Sorcery genre since it was created... look at any of the Conan stories out there.
In any case, I am totally positive for more female heroes as stretch goals, and I hope we unlock enough of them to get there!

Good about the female hero stretch goals, but you are missing the point about female objectification in their dress and poses. I admit that I've seen much worse that what you have done, but you could still have done much better. Imagine that there were only a couple of male heroes and they were all bent forward with their butt cheeks spread, one wearing nothing except an armored sock on his protruding genital area and the other wearing only a scarf draped inadequately around his hips with the long tail of it swinging in the wind -- then you might get some idea of what were are referring to when we comment on how the female heroes are portrayed.

Ares, for me, it's not the nakedness or the un-realisticness of the body types, it's the overt sexualization that is prevalent in only the female characters. For instance if the berserker was standing with his pelvis being thrust forward and contorting his body oddly to show off this back as well but having the loin cloth only covering his butt, I wouldn't be complaining as much.
Instead, we have the berserker ready for battle crouched in a fighting stance, and the females all in some "sexy" pose. Even this latest one has her hip in the air for no good reason other than to be sexy.
I'm not offended, just sad that this is still the default when it wouldn't have been that hard to fix. For instance:
-The rogue type lady could have had a more normal leather armor top underneath the animal horns. The horns would have still emphasized her breasts but in a way that doesn't make me thing it's for "sexy" reasons.
-Or the enchantress is mostly fine, but the top could be modeled with some thing straps so it would actually stay up and her pose changed so she's not in a position meant to show off her "assets". Have you tried to stand in the pose you gave her? No one would, so it's there for non-practical reasons.
There's nothing wrong with sexy, but when it's my only options to play as a girl it's annoying. For instance, put a male character in this wooden armor, see how ridiculous that looks to you? That's how I feel.
As a female gamer this is off putting to me, and only time will tell if it's off putting enough for me to drop my pledge. Like I said below, I think I'm there, but I'll hang in until close to the end to find out.

God i'am tired of all those "discussions" about Women in games. I really simply don't care and i don't understand the aggression some seem to have.Why is it even important which gender a character has?
Of course some show more skin than they should because of some simple facts. 90% of the players in conflict based Boardgames are male the few percent that would be offended by such minis is far smaller than those who like them(sex sells). I agree that especially the rogue should wear more clothes but dropping a pledge because i don't like two minis? Call me crazy, but I'am here because i like the rules. If i would not like two minis i would simply switch them when playing.
I never met a woman that really was offended by minis like those and i don't think i would like to play with males or females that would like to talk all game about the stupid armor a mini wears.
I would consider dropping, if they would waste resources on female duplicates. I really don't want them spend time and money on no new gameplay elements and only visual diversity.

Wow, she must have terrible back pain due to how big her boobs are!
Reading the remarks below, I agree 100% that you can make powerful women that are not sexualized. She looks ready for bed, if you know what I mean, rather than ready for battle.
But you obviously don't understand the problem so I'm not gonna waste my time reiterating what others have said. I'm still in for now, but it really saddens me that my only options to play female characters look more like they belong in a strip club than on the battlefield.
But I will say that if you made the male characters just as sexualized, then I probably wouldn't have as much of a problem because then it'd be equal and obviously show that you're going for a certain theme here.

Yes the game is important, but when the all of the artwork is staring back at you like this it's off putting. I don't stare at my mini's while playing, but I do while choosing characters or at my character card while playing. Or showing off the game to my other female gamer friends and getting them to play. Especially if I have other games that don't have this issue.
Take the box are and invert all the genders but keep the same level of sexiness. From the box art is that something you're likely to give a second thought or something you're liking to keep walking past?
To give another example. I saw the Kingdom Death: Monster kickstarter years ago and scrolled through the pictures, closed the window and didn't look back. From the page it was hard to tell there was an actual game there instead of "pinup" models. Looking at the reviews now, I think maybe it's a game I enjoy and the models I objected most strongly too aren't even in the game.
Or when my niece is old enough to start playing games, being able to play these with her without cringing. I know it's a minority opinion and I know it's not likely going to change this campaign one bit. But I'm hoping that being vocal about it now and addressing my concerns here where designers and people like you can read them that maybe the next game won't have the same issues.

@ marcied: It's not a minority opinion. Many women (and men) who feel like you do will not bother to post about it because there will be hordes of guys calling them names, arguing with false equivalencies and playing "derailment bingo" to try to shout them down and get them to shut up and go away. Because these guys have no respect for women and believe that their genital stimulation is more important than treating women with respect, they feel threatened and try to dismiss (or attack if that fails) whenever a woman points out that something is sexist.
@ Xep : You are pulling your statistics out of thin air. Acting like a male chauvinist tends to drive women away from you, so that's probably why you think there are so few playing. Your attitude of "it doesn't bother me as a man, so it shouldn't bother women, either -- but women bother me by bringing it to my attention" is not acceptable behavior.
And if "sex sells" so well, as you stated, then sexually objectify all the male characters in really ridiculous ways, too. Or would that make you uncomfortable? Like the objectification of women makes us?

@marcied
I have no idea how sexualised males would look like.(i can't see a single imperfection in those we have) Tastes of women are in my experience also too broad, what one may find attractive another one does not.(aside maybe from Brad Pitt but even then)
Sexy clothes on the other hand are a common thing for women. A male that would wear short shirts would be bullied by his own gender. While i agree that it is strange seeing all those woman wearing not enough in a battle, it is much more likely they would be dressed like that outside combat than a male counterpart.

@ Karl - if someone brought the game to my house, I'd probably sigh at the artwork and maybe make a comment or two at the beginning about how tired I was of the trend and then play. It won't stop me from playing, but unless the game play is FANTASTIC and does something I can't get in a different dungeon crawl game, I'd never ask to play it. I'd never turn down a game over the mini's and I wouldn't make a big deal about it, but I'd put my time and money in another direction.

@Xep a sexualized male is usually one with impossible muscles, chizzled form and such, think Conan I believe @anyone correct me if im an idiot

@Xep - I've never said I was offended and most of the women I play with wouldn't be offended either. We're just tired of it being our only options and if as so many people like to point out, voting with our wallets (i.e. dropping my pledge) when we don't approve of the content is the main way to make change.
Throw in some Joan of Arc or Brienne of Tarth type females as well and we'd be much less vocal about the whole situation. Make a male mage topless and in some kind of split skirt type outfit and we'd be less vocal. The only way we can see these changes happening is pointing it out and hopefully getting designers to see that it is important and it is a very easy way to get more backers and more money.

@marcied, What i never understood is why it is so important for women to play a female miniature. I always choose my heroes because of their abilities/archetype - in this case i will be playing this heroine as druid is my favorite archetype. When i read the announcement i was very happy that a druid found its way into the game.
In my gaming game groups all the men do this also but the women always select the female figures and then choose from that subset.

For what it's worth Karl, sexualized males aren't usually with bulging muscles. For the most part that's still a male power fantasy. I agree it's hard to picture a sexualized male mostly because they aren't drawn as much.
It's more the pose that we're concerned with. Take the Berserker, make the loin cloth thing he's got going on and change it to more of a sock like costume - not practical right? No male would go into battle like that right? Then change his pose to be more upright but trust his pelvis forward, but then also turn him to a side so he's facing battle. Sounds kind of awkward right? Now imagine that 90% of the options out there in general fantasy are in that vein. That's what we're reacting to.

It is a false equivalency to compare the images of the male and female figures/images and try to say that they are both "sexy" in the same way. It is the same false equivalency given when men say they wouldn't mind being catcalled and can't understand why women don't like it (because men do not have to worry much about being stalked, attacked for not responding, or raped by catcallers) -- most men wouldn't like it if they were catcalled by a group of men, though.
Guys, try imaging the "male gaze" aimed at your male heroes, who would then be posed and dressed as male prostitutes, with only their sexual objectification by other MEN being considered. Then, you might have some small idea of what it is like for women to constantly be bombarded by sexist crap. When men objectify women this way, it is because they only see them as some thing to be used sexually, no matter how the women feel about it.
Yes, it is uncomfortable (and unfair) for women to only have choices (usually much less then the men have) of characters to identify with that are portrayed with such disrespect and/or sexual objectification.
@ Karl: LOL! Yes, OF COURSE, women should ALWAYS be NICE and POLITE to men who are being rude and disrespectful, and who are not even listening or responding to what they are actually saying... Dream on.

to reiterate women and men are both of the human race and should be equals. it's sad to see women aren't in many ways and i hope that changes one day. I just don't believe your overly hateful approach is the way to get to equality

From a purely economic standpoint, I'm not sure why any game company would choose to produce the game in a way that would turn off a substantial portion of the potential customer base. I have two daughters, and I'd also like to have a game with female characters that aren't overtly sexualized. It doesn't have to be prudish - just something where the women look as kickass as the men, without resorting to hackneyed images of women in sexy poses.
Besides, the Boris Vallejo version of fantasy has been done to death. Overtly sexualized women wearing inappropriate armor has a level of familiarity that many (male) gamers will instantly identify, but it also makes it harder to stand out from the crowd. To bring a new game to market, It would be interesting to have a visual presentation of a fantasy game that shows all battle-hardened men *and* women wearing appropriate armor/cothing, if for no other reason than to present something new that hasn't been done 1000 times before. it could be a real selling point to present something like that.


@marcied if that's your whole point than it is a little early to "jump on the barricades". (I hope for a brienne like char. too but i don't think it is likely)
If you really want to play a game with a non adult i would jump on non conflict based eurogames or at least games were killing is not your only option. For me it is a lot more troublesome to play a game about killing stuff than that some characters have not enough clothes on them.(with kids).
@judy: I know some female boardgamers, but they prefer eurogames without conflict. I only know two that would even play games that are mainly about killing stuff and only one of them that likes games with competition. But all said and done of the about 40 people i play with, only 6 are women. Only two would play ameritrash games and all other women i know think boardgames are for kids only.(that is a ongoing conflict in my relationship that i "still" play games)
How many accounts on Boardgamegeek are female? And how many of them play "geeky" games?
If you really would have read what i wrote and not tried to make me a enemy (what radicals like to do) because i don't completely agree with you, you would have known that i would have preferred different minis too. Also I just think it is funny to put your experiences of gender inequity into games.
And on the other note reading your last comments "calling to battle" i think I'am done talking about that with you it seems i just bounced on a radical button and have no intention to ride it.

@Marcie - Haha that made me laugh. You have to agree that if we are going to the effort of zooming the images to a larger scale for confirmation then we are all taking it a bit to far. Lets hope for a few more choices when it comes to gender choices. I will say this but it seems the female hero is on the upswing when it comes to this type of literature. (Fantasy in general) I was walking through a bookstore and it was hard not to notice the general trend of women becoming the prominent lead in many Novels much more so than the past.

So ... we have
- not enough women in comparison to male characters? True. But I definitely think there will be female stretch goals. I could add that I'd like some female orcs, too ...
- too scantily clad women and because of that they are turned into sexual objects and used as a selling point?
I understand this up to a point. But ... the dwarf berserker is easily as "naked" ... as are the male orcs. I backed "Conan" ... I do not have a problem with female AND male figures in loincloths. Yeah it's unrealistic, but come on ... fantasy and realism?
And backing a game called "Swords and Sorcery" and not expecting some bikini heroines is ... uh ... a bit like walking into a bar and complaining that alcohol is sold there.
Really? We have a problem with women wearing bikinis and not with splitting skulls and killing other life-forms (all the enemies appear to be male ... hey, the game is made by people who hate males and paint them as brutes, enemies to be killed on sight)?
This is an add-on. If you feel it offends, simply don't buy it. Wait for other models and if you feel that the game altogether draws too much on nakedness or lack of women, you can still drop your pledge. But having this discussion NOW (after not even 2 days into the KS) and sort of bringing down the good spirits here is a bit premature, I think.

@GLGamesMike - Almost feel the need to somewhat apologize since it isn't my concern what genre of games one selects to play. I am totally onboard with the reasoning of I would like to play this with my kids but have these concerns. Is revenue being lost? How much revenue would be lost if the miniatures were changed and another group considered them just Meh and dropped their pledge. Does anyone really have the data? Personally I backed their last project and while their miniatures were good they certainly didn't have the detail to make them worrisome. The detail just wasn't there.

OMG. This same stupid argument again? Figures in gaming should be over the top in looks. It's people mindlessly complaining like this that cause game creators to stop making female characters all together. Just look at CMON. To be more PC, they make mostly male figures, which completely sucks. I urge the game creators here to totally ignore these all too easily offended nay sayers. This character is amazing and there is nothing wrong with her at all. Please keep making more female characters like her so this game will have an equal number of male and female characters to choose from. Thank you!

@ William: Oh, it's a "stupid" argument because you are male and see no problem with the way things are? So, you post to insult and try to belittle women's concerns because they bother you? Oh, you poor guy, of course you are more important the half the population of the world that gets treated like shit by guys like you. Of course we are too easily offended because you say so. Sexual objectification of women and girls is good enough for you, so it should be good enough for women and girls, too, and things don't need to improve at all. We should be glad it's not worse!!!
Sheesh!
Not that you have a bit of a clue about what you are talking about.
Telling women to shut up when you get called on your sexist crap just proves their points. Do you do this in real life, too? Gotta defend your "rights" to objectify women in any way you want to, right? Pathetic.

Judy, if you think that a small plastic mini in a fantasy game is a sexual threat to half the population of the planet, then I believe that you may need therapy. My gaming group has more women than men, and they find this types of arguments ridiculous. If you are so concerned about women, why don't you donate your time at a women's shelter instead of pointlessly trying to ruin a fantasy game with unessesary complaints? This figure looks fine. She is clothed and frankly quite bad ass looking.

It's ironic how men claim that women are over-reacting and "worked up" or emotional, yet, there are all these men who take personally comments by women about things that concern them, and attack women (who were using reasoned arguments to make their valid points) with personal insults, wild accusations, and demands to shut and go away.
You are correct, William, I should not have even acknowledged the comments of you and your rude, nasty, sexist cohorts, let alone let them affect me in any way. Thank you for pointing that out. Please continue acting like a mad dog who who is afraid that women will take his rights to be as sexist as he likes and enjoy doing it publicly.
@ Weresheep: And, on the other hand, there are also men who do think it's a problem. I know. It just disgusts me that when women comment about what they see as sexism that makes them feel uncomfortable (or worse -- and believe me, woman are subjected to sexism everywhere, not just in this game), a bunch of men immediately jump in to dismiss their concerns, insult them, and tell them to go away if they don't like it. This rarely happens to men who voice concerns, even when they are saying the exact same thing that a woman has just said. And if a woman won't back down on her valid points, there are again a bunch of men who will get really nasty, usually while saying she should be nicer and there must be something wrong with her. What's really sad and disturbing, is that people think this is normal and ordinary behavior for men and don't call these guys on their inappropriate and abusive behavior.

I think everybody had a chance to be heard. I like the miniature a lot. Some women like it, too. Some men and some women don't - and while I do not agree with them (nor with some of the things they said), they have the right to say it.
It is a paid add-on, nobody is forced to buy it. For the rest of the Kickstarter, only Ares know what is in store for us ... they can stick to what they have planned or - if they feel the objections and their consequences outweigh the agreeing voices - change some things. But I don't think keeping this argument going and allowing it to get even more fierce is something that benefits this Kickstarter.


@Judy - I like the bingo link. I've definitely seen most (but not all) of those comments before.
@J Young - A couple people have mentioned the game Myth as an example of how a company can present amazing miniatures with some level of gender balance without overt sexualization. I don't own the game, but I backed the Myth:Journeyman KS, and never read any complaints that there were too many female characters and/or that they weren't sexualized enough. Not to say there aren't people who feel that way, but it's doubtful that they make up as large a portion of the gamer market overall.
Just to follow up on someone else's comments, these really are two different issues being raised about this campaign: 1) not enough female characters overall; and 2) the female characters are highly sexualized. I'd like to think that no one really has a problem with the first issue. Bring on more female characters in the stretch goals!
As to the second issue, I grew up playing D&D in the 80's and 90's with lots of images of highly sexualized female characters and never gave it a thought. I love my eye candy, so whatevs. But eventually I had children of my own. I now have 4 kids (2 boys and 2 girls). My older son doesn't really like board games, but my older daughter does. She's my gaming partner. So now I'm paying attention to the issue in a way that I never did before. Will one character in one game make a big difference? No.
But I know I'm not alone. Many of my gamer friends from high school and college are in the same boat. In fact, lots of Gen X (and Millenial) gamers have grown up to have kids of their own, and love to play games with them. For the roughly 50% of them who have daughters, the question becomes this: in this Golden Age of Boardgames, if a gamer dad (or mom) wants to introduce their kids to a fantasy co-op game and has the option to choose a game without highly sexualized depictions of women over one that does include them, why would a company looking to publish a new game immediately risk losing sales over a simple cosmetic issue?
I love Ares Games, especially Sails of Glory and War of the Ring. I respect that this is their game and they will publish it however they see fit. My point isn't "They are doing it wrong - they should do it my way!" My point is "You guys do whatever you want, but there is an even bigger market to go after if you are interested."
Will it affect my decision to back this game? Probably not. I play a lot of games (although not as many as I'd like!). But it will affect my decision over which game to play with my kids. And my daughter is another future customer for decades to come.

@GLGamesMike- Overtly sexualized characters ? I think that's really debatable as I don't find any of the characters offensive in any way. But anyway, that's really subjective and each person is entitled to express a different opinion.
In any case, even if this is new territory for Ares (I've only backed this and Age of Conan reboot so I don't know) I still believe Ares should stick with their original plan for the game.
Those who do not approve should vote with their wallets. And if enough people say no to this new direction, well Ares will find out really soon and they will think twice in the future about going with "overtly sexualized" characters in their games.

@GLGamesMike - Thanks for the in-depth explanation of your view and I appreciate your response. I am not a proponent of the view that the game needs any particular imagery to be successful nor an adversary of such. What I take offense is people that chime in that it needs to be changed to their particular perspectives or the game is flawed especially when said offenses can easily be mediated. You don't like a particular ADD-ON? Don't buy it. Problem solved. You don't care for a particular miniature and its corresponding artwork? Get a shovel and bury it in your backyard to never be seen again. Problem Solved. There are two miniatures out of the dozen supplied? Dig two holes. Problem solved. The games direction is radically apposed to you own. Move on to another game. Problem solved. Sometimes the easiest solution is ignored because it doesn't meet a particular agenda. The argument that revenue is being lost just needs to read the similar outcries in the conan KS'er - 3.3M later seems to dictate that such outcries that the sky was falling were false. I am all for choice. I am apposed to the view that one's particular choice is the only choice. I think it is great that you game with your daughter and strive to protect that environment. The framework of this environment is maintained by you but the time will come when her influence will play a major part and she may choose what style she prefers to play. Again. Choice. Cheers.

@J Young - Mediation is different than just telling someone they can choose not to buy a product. Mediation requires two parties to communicate with each other in a supervised setting in an attempt to find a mutually agreeable solution. (I know, because I engage in mediation for work on a regular basis).
But to take something Halcon said, at what point would it make sense for Ares to consider making a cosmetic change to their game? If 10 people speak up? 100? 1000? How would Ares even know that they are potentially losing sales if no one ever speaks up to let them know?
As a small business owner myself, I definitely want my customers to let me know what they want to spend their money on. I probably won't change my business practices based on the comments of a few people (unless they were expressing a preference that was costless to me to implement), but if enough people do, then I'd like to have that information so I can decide for myself how to proceed.
There's also a larger purpose in (politely) publicly expressing a preference. Even if Ares doesn't make any change, the fact that the issue is raised across dozens or hundreds of KS projects may influence future game designers who are considering how to depict women in their game to choose a style that is less divisive in the first place. To be clear, I have no personal moral objections of such depictions. I grew up with them. But there are literally hundreds of games with such depictions. There are comparatively few fantasy games without them. If raising awareness causes the ratio of games with and without overtly sexualized depictions of women to get closer to 1:1, then it's definitely worth it. People should absolutely have the choice to play the type of game they want to play!
What I recognize and agree with is that the *way* people speak up can make all the difference. Demanding that a product should be made according to their own wishes is not going to influence a lot of people. In the same way, people who respond to such demands with similarly impolite language are no better. I don't give much credence to anything someone is trying to say if they are insulting and rude in the process.
But assuming that someone is speaking civilly and respectfully, there should be a mutually acknowledged space for people to say "this product look very cool. I have a concern about this one aspect of the product, though." And the response isn't simply to tell them "then don't buy the game."
In other words, if someone (civilly) says "this game would benefit from changing the comic sans font" (a nod to Defenders of the Realm), the canned response shouldn't be "Don't like comic sans? Don't buy the game." In the same way, then, it would be nice if someone says, civilly "this game would benefit from using images of women that aren't so overtly sexualized," without being told "Don't like sexy women? Then don't buy the game.”
The market can only produce a supply to meet a demand if that demand is communicated. So consider this an attempt to make the market more efficient. :-)

This game would not benefit by changing. A simple and civil statement. There are already plenty of games that have cartoonish artwork and childish looking themes and characters out there to choose from. Think Myth. This, thank god, is not one of them. Kingdom Death stuck to their artistic vision and still made over 2 million dollars. I don't see how civil discussion of a backers personal preferences has any weight at all in this instance. This is not a democratic debate on the content of the game that will eventually lead to convincing the creator to change things. This is a comment board underneath one small component, a component that actually looks great just exactly how he's designed it. The creator has a vision for how the game will look, and he should stick to it. The majority of the people backing this game are doing so because of what they have seen so far, and it all looks amazing. There will be no money lost at all in continuing to put out a fantastic looking product that adults will want to play, contrary to some peoples special beliefs. And pointing out that they don't have to buy this game is a polite, and perfectly considerate and valid statement.

Apparently, there is no room for gender equality in board game Kickstarters. Every one I've been involved with recently has devolved into sexist diatribes and adulation of Kingdom Death. @Judy Krauss, I'm in your corner, and I wish you the best. But I can't take the unchecked testosterone anymore. I'm voting with my money and going elsewhere.

What I don't understand about the faux outrage is backers knew what they were getting into before the KS even started. They released images of the original heroes months ago. If you are that overly sensitive, then you should of known before backing what you were getting. It's like buying a Penthouse magazine and then getting upset at the naked women pics inside!
There's plenty of games out there with less sexy heroines. And there are a ton of fantasy themed games to choose from. Find a game that you like and back out of this one. At this point nothing is going to change, the original figures and this add-on are done and the backers have spoken. Just look at the backing numbers.


dai, vi ho fatto un estratto. ;)
Immagine
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Re: Sessismo e GdT

Messaggioda Agzaroth » 14 dic 2015, 9:33

phalanx ha scritto:Personalmente non lo trovo ideale per iniziare una discussione, soprattutto considerando che l'articolo (che come dicevo sembra più una difesa ad oltranza di un punto di vista) è in home page e la discussione invece è in un altro luogo.

questo è purtroppo un problema di fruibilità e me ne dispiaccio io per primo. Le discussioni sono molto più agevoli sul forum - proprio tecnicamente parlando - che non in home dove la struttura a nido dei commenti e la visualizzazione grafica sono molto più penalizzanti. Se vogliamo ci sia una discussione, non possiamo fare altrimenti, del resto ho messo il link diretto nell'articolo.

Per le argomentazioni, non mi paiono così provocatorie...certo vanno in una direzione perché si cerca di confutare una tesi esposta, ovvero quella per cui tali miniature siano sessiste.
Poi sì, il tono è abbastanza provocatorio, volutamente, ma non mi pare di essere stato offensivo.

phalanx ha scritto:Comunque per tornare IT, kd ha un altro target, guarda la pletora di genitali esposti in varie forme. Negarlo sarebbe come accomunare pokemon e tanto cuore solo perchè sono card games

aspetta, genitali esposti non ce ne sono. Ci sono prose provocanti e abiti (?) succinti. E' una questione di buco legislativo quindi? Non so che livello di complessità abbia KD (@kadaj ce l'hai?) e certamente il pubblico non sono i bimbi, è pacifico...ma gli adolescenti di sicuro.
Voglio dire, in che campo siamo? nel gusto personale? nel buon gusto? quali sono i confini del sessismo e chi li stabilisce?

A ne personalmente viene da dire che quelle di KD siano pose e disegni esagerati. Non mi viene da fare altrettanto per le donnine di Conan o di S&S.
Però posso io imporre ad un altro la censura per le immagini di KD, se lui le trova normali?
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Re: Sessismo e GdT

Messaggioda phalanx » 14 dic 2015, 9:37

[spoil]Immagine[/spoil]
Da tapatalk non riesco a metterla sotto spoiler.
Questo è un concept di kd

te l'ho spoilerizzata io, Agz ;)
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Re: Sessismo e GdT

Messaggioda Morg » 14 dic 2015, 9:37

Butto lì la mia.
Personalmente non trovo problematica la questione fintanto che la eventuale nudità è accessorio della caratterizzazione dei personaggi, un gerriero o una guerriera sono "incidentalmente" (ovvio che non sia un caso) nudi, ma rimane chiaro il loro "ruolo", nell'artwork, nelle pose, nella resa complessiva del personaggio.
Per capirci, con le ovvie differenze, il discobolo o la venere di Milo hanno fuori il bigolo e le zinne, ma rimangono "degni", con chiare identità.
I vari Conan e co., così come tante eroine fantasy le trovo di questo tipo (salvo qualche esagerazione, che è vero esiste).

Trovo invece più difficilmente accettabile quando da accessorio la nudità ostentata diventa fulcro della caratterizzazione dei personaggi, come nel perfetto esempio di Kingdom Death (che non conoscevo). Qui la identità dei personaggi è persa completamente (gerriere?!) e abbiamo rappresentazioni tipiche da fumetto erotico, in cui il richiamo sessuale è preponderante (dove non il solo) e domina la resa finale (pose e financo espressioni).
Chiaramente in questi casi non parlo di una eventuale censura, ma di una revisione del target più chiara. Nel caso citato per esempio, non conosco ripeto il gioco ma dall'artwork mi pare un gioco erotico. :pippotto:

Ovviamente il confine non è sempre così netto e chiaro, come sempre.



Sulla polemica 3 alberi, mi viene da sorridere. Alberi no, recensione Kingdom Death sì?
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Re: Sessismo e GdT

Messaggioda Morg » 14 dic 2015, 9:38

PS.
Ovviamente adesso di KD vado a comprarne 6 copie.
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